Sallies . . .

[DELacrosse]

We should start posting this every year but is this the year Sallies finally gets beaten by a Delaware team? Defensively, they're incredibly talented and they have two faceoff guys who are not dominant like Reeder but still very good. Offensively, for the most part, the last few years they've created out of the midfield and the attack finishes. The attack remains outstanding at finishing but the midfield is very young. This year might be the best chance for a Delaware team to knock them off. I say this year because by next year that midfield is going to go from young and talented to fairly young and dominant and Sallies is always going to have attackmen who can finish and long, athletic poles. It would take a perfect game from Cape, CR, Archmere, or Tower Hill but I think there is an outside chance.

On a side note I miss the days when there was no one dominant team in Delaware. Granted the only teams that have ever won a state title are Tatnall, CR, Cape, Tower Hill, Sallies, and St. Andrew's but at least there was an open competition instead of every team playing for 2nd place. I think a lot of it has to do with talent in and around Delaware that would've typically split between upstate private schools is now heading much more to Sallies. But, oh well, it is what it is.

 

[laxfamily]

It comes down to resources. Let's face it, parents who send their kids to private schools generally have more resources than folks who send their kids to public schools. Teams from Sallies, Tower Hill and Archmere are able to travel together over the summer to team camps. Probably nearly every kid on those teams belongs to a club team, as well. Sallies plays together as a team all summer at camps all over the country. It's quite expensive and most public school families cannot afford the several thousand dollars per year it takes to participate all summer long.
Additionally, what is the number of players on Sallies who are on scholarship? They are able to dip in the talent pool in the area and offer scholarships to talented players (Catholic or not). The divide is only going to get wider and wider between Delaware Public and Private schools because the rules for competition are very different.
Sallies' team lacrosse IQ blows every team in the State out of the water. Position by position, though, they don't necessarily have all the best players. There are an awful lot of good talented players in the State who play for mediocre teams. I believe a State All Star team, given time to practice together, would not only beat Sallies but destroy them.

 

[WoodenStick]

Disagree on several of your points, Laxfamily. First, Salesianum doesn't give athletic scholarships. All financial aid is based on need and managed through the NAIS process. All students who test through the admissions process are welcome and welcome to apply for aid. Best, there are multiple academic levels based on ability. The school does a wonderful job of educating and teaching while providing a great experience for the families. And, based on the incredible gift announced yesterday, more kids needing aid will be direct beneficiaries. Obviously, I'm a fan and can't say enough about the school.

Second, as the lax team gets better and better with very solid coaching from Bob Healy, Shawn Plews and their staff, more kids want to go. Unfortunately, not all will see the field. When you have over 100 kids try out, it is competitive - to say the least. All of the starters and most of the 2nd and 3rd line subs, play club at high levels and want to play at higher levels in college for D1 and D3 teams. I do, however, think we may see kids headed back to other schools to see the field with a HS team.

Finally, wishful thinking regarding your comments about a State All Star team. That topic was debated at length last year on this board. As much as I'd love to see that game, I would expect a Sals victory.

This post was edited on 4/8 10:32 PM by WoodenStick

 

[DELacrosse]

I think it helps too that the southeastern part of Pennsylvania has become one of the premier spots for lacrosse in the country. I heard about the gift, 10 million? That would buy an awful lot of equipment and off-season opportunities for kids that can't afford it.

That coaching staff has built a machine, I mean a dog with a whistle could have won a state championship with last years team! Before they went to Sallies, they were similar to Friends where they were solid every year but never really competed for a championship. Any chance they are going to leave and maybe coach college? haha These things tend to be cyclical but this has been one looooong cycle.

 

[MGpie]

Wooden stick is correct. Even though very young, Sallies would beat a state high school all star team from Delaware.
Next year, they only lose 2 defenders , one mid fielder and one attack man that cannot be replaced tomorrow. If you saw Sallies last year team you would know they would have beat the Delaware all star team and had a running clock

 

[DELacrosse]

I doubt it would've been a running clock but last year's team probably would've beaten an all-star team. This year I doubt it. Well, that is if the hypothetical all star team had the same amount of practice time as Sallies.

 

[laxfamily]

We're totally in agreement, WoodenStick, that Sallies is a great school with arguably the best coaches in the State. A lot of good athletes are attracted to the school for these reasons - as well they should be. I'm also of fan of the school. However, you're too old as to be so naive to think they don't also approach some athletes to come there to play and get a good education. I've seen the recruiting process first hand - it happens.
My comments were not made to demean Sallies. Rather, to state they have an advantage due to the resources available to them. Sallies is very fortunate to be able to play together as a team for a longer period of time than most other schools in the State. I hope that the players who are unable to pay for extracurricular lacrosse are reporting to the NCAA that someone else paid for them to go to OSU, UNC, etc...
As far as the game is concerned, I like the chances of an all star team. Aside from goalie, which Sallies player is the best in the State at his position? Sallies is a very good team with talented players that is VERY well coached, but a team of the best players given time to practice with a good coach would beat them. The real question is which coach could pull it off? Because that game, alas, will never come to pass.

 

[MGpie]

De Lax good point about practice time and playing together would be unfair advantage to any high school team vs all star team

 

[MGpie]

laxfamily Freibott best defender , Kelly best attack Kern best goalie and wooden stick is old after posting he rested for an hour

 

[updara]

Approaching other players and asking them to come there is a lot different than saying that they offer scholarships. The admissions process and financial aid process is handled by a national company who manages this process for many private schools. As you stated, many families can afford to send their children to summer camps and to play in summer and fall leagues, which doesn't support the claim for the use of scholarships. It might be true that some families would be considered wealthy, but that isn't the case for all families who make the sacrifice to send their boys to Sallies. In many cases, the child is a 4th or 5th generation Sallies student.

I don't think Healey needs to approach parents at Tattnal or TW, who decide to transfer in to Sallies to win a state championship. Many of these parents, probably the father, take the initiative on their own to transfer their child to Sallies. Do they speak with Healey, during the process, maybe. Does or can Healey influence the decision, no. Nor does speaking with Healey guarantee your child will play. There are plenty of kids who make the move and never crack the starting line up.

Four championships in six years, might have more to with it, than Healey talking to some kids at a summer league tournament.

 

[WoodenStick]

Thx, MagPie. Just woke up from my nap and feeling rested. Updara - well said. Couldn't agree more.

This post was edited on 4/9 9:37 PM by WoodenStick

 

[laxfool]

Most important - Salesianum lax has raised the bar for all Delaware high school lax, and that's a good thing for all Delaware lacrosse. What most people who have never played the game don't understand is that a few good players can rarely defeat an entire team of solid players. That's one of the best aspects of the sport - it is truly a team effort. The Sal's advantage is that they can ATTRACT and enroll a complete team of year-round, dedicated lax players while I would guess that every other Delaware high school team has 5 or 6 at best, and the rest of the starters are seasonal. Even if other teams have 11 true lax players, we all know it takes at least 14-15 to be competitive at the highest levels, and that is what Sallies is able to do that other schools are not. All of this considered, the only problem I would have with Sallies in Delaware competition is if a significant number of their key players are not Delaware kids, and I don't know anything about that. It seems only logical that a true Delaware high school championship team in any sport should be made up of mostly Delaware players. It should be fairly easy to implement and manage a rule that any Delaware team can have no more than a certain percentage (25%?) of it's players who do not reside in Delaware. Public schools play under a 100% in-state rule.

 

[MGpie]

2012 goalie 2attack 3middies 2defenders who started for Sallies lacrosse were from Pa. In 2014 , goalie Delaware, 2 attack Delaware 1 attack Pa, 5 of first 6 mid fielders Delaware 1 kid Pa who is playing a lot for first time as senior, defense 3 Delaware one Pa , 2 faceoff guys Delaware. The three Pa kids who play a lot are all seniors . Next year unless some Pa kid comes in as freshman, all starters will be Delaware kids.

 

[laxfool]

Good to hear Sallies lax will be returning to a team of mostly Delaware kids in the future. Without using too much imagination it seems the Sals are now benefiting from the PA team of recent years by becoming the "first look" for any young Delaware player capable of paying private school tuition or getting a grant. It is not a new phenomenon. It wasn't too long ago that Tatnall was the default school for Delaware prep players. That said, Sallies is still quite a different situation due to both the male population of the school and significantly lower tuition than the preps. While it is significant that future Sals starters may be mostly from Delaware, anyone understanding the game knows that the second 11 players have nearly as much to do with team success as the first 11. At some point in the future it will likely make sense to create a conference for preps and parochials for competitive equity. My guess is it will become a serious topic with 2 to 3 more years of complete Sallies dominance.

 

[WoodenStick]

They are a team of mostly Delaware kids now with many of the kids coming through the Wilmington Wings program. This annual debate gets tiresome: Sallies recruits, too many out of state players, lower tuition, all male population, etc., etc.

I floated this idea a year ago in response to these comments... With over 100 kids trying our each year, the school could, conceivably, field a fourth team. This team would be a very competitive "out of state" team, playing no in-state competition. The second team would be an in-state varsity, third team, JV and fourth, a developmental team.

The state is too small for split conferences, especially today with too few competitive teams. It's no fun for either the winners or the losers to play in such one-sided games.

 

[laxdeusa]

So the idea is that the Salesianum "first" team would play a national out of state scehedule (pretty much what they do now) and "not" compete in the state tournament, while the "second" team would be the group that plays more of an in-state schedule and then compete in the Delaware State Championship Tournament?

 

[DELacrosse]

It's clear that Sallies has certain advantages but the system is what it is and it's not going to change. The fact that they get so many kids playing in the offseason is huge as is the fact that they have so many players. We can talk a bunch about teams improving by playing a more challenging schedule but the reality is, if you're practicing every day against elite players it forces you to improve. I think that is what really sets them apart. That competition at practice everyday forces them to practice 100 miles an hour and it shows in the way they play. I honestly believe when their run started that they didn't have the best 10 starters in the state but they play so hard and so fast that it overcame their small deficiencies. It also forces them to play in the offseason, because if they didn't there will be someone taking their spot. That's not true of other schools, certain players can play only during lacrosse season and still start because they're just isn't anyone better.

I agree with what WoodenStick said, there aren't enough teams to split into two divisions. Teams will eventually catch up to Sallies. Though I am happy to hear they'll have mostly DE kids, it always annoyed me that they won Delaware state titles with a bunch of kids from PA!

 

[Outofstate12]

New to preps, but have been reading for years....had to sign up just so I could get in on this. Sorry no offense to Sallies, we all know they are a good team, they recruit either by enticing the kids with a solid program or are "encouraged" to enroll with a little help from the school. Also, they do go out of state and play together in the off season, I believe that is mandatory to be on varsity, I also believe the head coach goes along for the ride, which I believe is walking a grey line. With that.....enough already, there are hundreds or even thousands of OTHER players in the state, can we talk about some of them! If you go back to previous posts, it always goes back to Sallies,....no matter what the initial topic is. We (I) get it Sallies is good!! So to change the subject...who would be the players on another team? This Dream Team that could or could not beat current Sallies or the Sallies of 2013. My thoughts, Dream Team 2014 could beat Sallies 2014.

 

[laxdeusa]

For over 100 years Salesianum has been accused of recruiting and walking "grey" lines. Even the chess team gets accused of cheating. How long are we going to beat that dead horse. Talk about needing to change the subject....

 

[laxdeusa]

BTW you don't need a dream team to beat Sallies. Saint Marks and Sals were tied at half time just last week. Saint Marks has proven they can stay with the Sals for at least a half, so whose to say they coulldn't do it for "two" halves. I am sure the Sals would prevail 9 times out of 10 but thats why we play the games

 

[dovetail]

This whole thread is starting to remind me of Sanford basketball. A school with barely 200 males, unable to field a football team, charging $20,000+ plus tuition, yet always in the State Championship every year. If it walks like a duck, well you know the rest....

 

[laxfool]

The easy solution to settle the issue between Delaware private and public schools would be to keep everything the same for the regular season and then add a playoff bracket exclusively for the privates. Let them establish their winner as Private School State Champion and then play the Public School Champion for the First State Lacrosse Title. It would only add a few games to the state tournament schedule and would end all the controversy. If a single private or public school repeatedly dominates (say for 10 years in a row) the First State Title game, the game will ultimately be discontinued as it probably should be. Another aspect of creating such a dual championship would be to have a legitimate Public vs. Private All-Star Game to close the season - not a game to make seniors feel good, but a genuine competition between the best public and private players in the state. I think more than a few college scouts would be in attendance, and the stands would likely be packed with lax fans of all ages.

 

[laxdeusa]

I like the idea laxfool. BTW the Sals beat La Casta Canyon today 10 to 8.

 

[DELacrosse]

The only problem I have with that idea is that you're going to come across the same issue in both tournaments. Sallies will continue to dominate the private championship while CR and Cape will dominate the public championship. It would take a few years and it probably isn't feasible but if all the middle schools across the state had lacrosse teams it would help foster a little parity. I know there are a ton of teams, even some of the really good ones, that have a lot of players pick up a stick for the first time in 9th grade. Give those kids an additional 3 years and you might have something. The best case scenario would be to have youth programs all over the state where kids start playing when they're 5 or 6.

 

[laxfool]

Developing high school development feeder programs throughout Delaware and improving the high school playoff system are two entirely different subjects.

The high school lax playoff system can be improved immediately by simply separating the private (tuition) schools from the public schools at the playoff level, naming a state champion in each, and having a State Title game to be played between the two champions. The legitimate issue regarding unfair competition would go away, and private and public school teams would get appropriate recognition in their respective categories. Of course, the best private and public schools would win, which is the way it should be. If and when lax grows enough in Delaware to allow for smaller and larger school divisions it can be implemented very easily with minimal or no expense. The DIAA might even make some extra income from the Title game, and a private vs public genuine All-star Game to follow.

A new thread should be created for the importance of development/feeder programs

 

[laxfamily]

The voice of sanity. Thank you!

 

[freddiefokker]

Sallies question...

Will Sals reschedule their game against St. John's College HS? That might be a good one to see.

 

[WoodenStick]

Probably not. The schedules are tight and St Johns is not having a very good year. That leaves Salesianum with one to fill.

On another note - Salesianum v Chatham - at Haverford's Checking for Cancer Tournament. The defense, led by Sr Captain Freddy Freibott, is as good or better than anywhere this year. And, with Ryan Kern in goal, they'll be tough to beat through the rest of their schedule.
This post was edited on 4/17 10:24 AM by WoodenStick

 

[laxdeusa]

I watched the Sallies vs Chatham game on-line. Defense won the game for the Sals. They are an extremely talented group. The goalie was standing on his head. Sallies atttack had trouble finishing. The Sals middies are not nearly as strong as last years group but that is to be expected when you lose 5 kids who were All State with 2 All Americans in the group.

 

[dovetail]

"they'll be tough to beat through the rest of their schedule."

Very tough games coming up with Shawnee (NJ) and the California school.

 

[laxdeusa]

WoodenStick, did you go to the Sals / Canisius game today? Score? Highlights?

 

[WoodenStick]

Yes, very cold night in Chestertown last night. Sals won, 9-2, after a slow start. 1-0 Sals after 1, 4-0 at half. Canisius had a small (numbers) team, was more physical than most of the teams to date, and played with an edge. Sals d continues to hold very strong and they shut them down fairly effectively. Sals found its scoring opportunities as the middies settled in , feeding the attack nicely. Bailey Martin had another very good game at attack and is finishing with solid goals, inside. He's having a very good season. The very young first line midfield, 1 frosh and 2 sophs, continues to improve and move the ball well. Turnovers becoming less a factor. Next game Thursday v St Ignatius from San Francisco at Baynard.

 

[MGpie]

Wooden Stick should lay off fire water before game

 

[laxfool]

DELacrosse, there are two reasons every other Delaware high school lax team is playing for second place, and will likely do so without a serious disruption in the formula that makes the Sals what they are.

First, they have very good coaching. Next, they have a student population which enables them to get 100 prep-school athletes out for the team while baseball is still, by far, the most popular spring sport in the region. Neither one of these two factors alone makes them unbeatable, but the two together provide them with an undeniable advantage in Delaware high school lacrosse, at least for the foreseeable future.

That said, if a Matt Danowski or a Tim Desko took the head lax coaching job at any of the other northern Delaware prep schools they would compete against Sallies within 4 years - the time it takes a school and coach to establish a legitimate college scholarship feeder program. Prep school parents understand the significance of college lax scholarships, and until more public colleges enter the scholarship arena for lax the preps will offer the best college lax feeder programs. While lax is enjoying incredible growth it is still a generation away from there being enough good players in public school communities to achieve competitive parity with the preps that take lax seriously.

Someone in a previous post mentioned the Sanford basketball anomaly which involves targeting a specific demographic and benefiting from active, or even passive recruiting. It is the reason there should be separate champions for private and public schools for all sports, even in little old Delaware. Hard to believe in this age of political correctness and fairness that anyone can think that schools that can recruit and award scholarships, not be bound by geographic boundaries, and even have players living in other states is somehow equitable.

 

[MGpie]

Sallies has advantage in that they have players who go there to play lacrosse . Many of them only play lacrosse. Last year many of the key players came from Pa. Two live in Unionville, there father went to Sallies. Two from Garnet Valley who live one mile into Pa. This year two senior starters come from PA and two other Pa kids play a lot. The rest of the players come from DE . Most from Wilmington Wings. Next year only one Pa kid will be left and there are very few Pa kids in the younger classes. As to your claim they give scholarships for lacrosse , simply not true . I know one of last year Pa kids , in fact I can assure you he did not receive anything but a bill that I had to pay every month.

 

[laxfool]

MGpie, congratulations on your son being able to attend a great school and experience an exceptional lax program in Delaware. Are you saying no one at Salesianum gets official financial assistance of any kind via the school, or a school affiliated third party?

You are correct that Sallies has an advantage because they have players who go there just to play lacrosse which also provides the depth necessary to play 48 minutes of solid lax. I suggest the second and third midfield lines are six of the most important players on the team when it comes to playing competitively at high levels, especially as the velocity of the game is increased.

I know you'll agree the PA kids helped the Sals elevate the program to the national level which enabled them to be the magnet attraction for college-bound lax players in northern Delaware. There is nothing wrong with that, and if I was the coach and school I would have done the same thing. Excellence is rare these days, and I commend it whenever it occurs.

In the interest of encouraging ethical, competitive growth of the game in Delaware it is time to differentiate between public and private schools at the tournament level. However, they should be able to schedule each other for regular season games if desired and get the appropriate benefit in tournament credit. Let the winners (and even runners-up if possible) from the public and private brackets be named public and private school State Champions, and let the top two teams vie for the First State Title. A runner-up game might also help to create credibility for the top four teams, but is not necessary. A genuine public/private All-Star game might also encourage stand-out players to stay in their public school regardless of their team prowess. Looking at if from the opposite perspective, I wonder how many promising public school freshman leave the game because their varsity experience will be embarrassing at best.

The reason this topic won't go away is because everyone knows there is something inherently wrong with the existing system but are not sure what to do about it. It also doesn't help that the DIAA is a bureaucracy usually not interested in changing the status quo. In the end, the Sals will likely have to annihilate every other Delaware high school lax team for 10 years before the outcry for common sense is considered.

 

[Outofstate12]

Does anyone remember Red Lion Christian and their football program......this kind of sounds familiar!

 

[FBLAX23]

Isn't that the truth..................

 

[Tarzan79]

Sallies will win every private title and Cape/CR will win every public school title, then what will people complain about not having a D1 and D2 for public and private.

 

[laxfool]

Tarzan79, Of course they'll complain. It's human nature, but the legitimate inequity of private vs public will be resolved. Plus it will create the opportunity for more play-off/all-star games of real interest.

I'm not sure I agree that Cape/CR will win every public title, which may the case for a few years, but with the growth of the game including more rec development leagues and club playing opportunities for New Castle County public school players it won't be long before more Delaware public school contenders arrive. Just like any other sport requiring a learned skill-set, players entering the game at age 12 and older will mostly be average, and a relative few starting at age 7 will be exceptional. If you look at all the current exceptional high school teams you will see that many or most of their players have been playing lax since they were 6, 7 or even younger. Unfortunately, many lax fans/parents have never experienced lax for little kids so they can't relate to how important it is.

On the private school side, one need only look at how many Ivy's are in the top 20 to know that development of stick skills and lax IQ determine the quality of a team rather than the size or population of the school. Stick skills and lax IQ require youth development and year-round club playing programs. It's really that simple, but it takes several years of dedication and commitment by youth program organizers and coaches.