Now that the regular season is nearly complete has anyone calculated the tournament seedings? Refresh my memory: 2 points for a win, 2 points for a game against an opponent with a .701 winning precentage and 1 point for a game against an opponent with a .501 winning percentage. Is that correct?
State Tournament Seedings
- Thread starter laxdeusa
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That is correct.
I will look at the seedings tonight, but a couple of things I noticed already to take into account.
They have a new rule this year that your denominator in the ranking calculation is the # of games on your schedule as of April 1. So if you had a game scheduled that was not played for some reason, you get zero points and your ranking will suffer from the higher denominator.
I think this was put in place to keep teams from not rescheduling postponed games that would "hurt" their seeding. For example, say you have played 14 games, won 10 and have earned 12 bonus points. Your index # would be 32/14, or 2.286.
Now, let's say your 15th game was against a team with a losing record. If you play it and win, your index is now 34/15, or 2.267. You actually benefit from not rescheduling that game.
Now a .02 difference sounds small, but the rankings get so bunched in the middle that such a small difference could change your seed by 2-3 slots. With all the bad weather this Spring, I don't know if this rule will trip up some teams.
Second, your opponents have to have played at least 10 varsity level games for the game to count in your ranking. I noticed Woodbridge only played a few games and forfeited a # of others. All of their games would not count for the teams they played.
So, for example, Delmar is not 9-3 right now for tourney purposes - they are 7-3 because their Woodbridge games would be excluded.
Also, based on my reading, I don't think Conference Championship games (like the Henlopen game scheduled for Friday) will count in the calculations.
I will look at the seedings tonight, but a couple of things I noticed already to take into account.
They have a new rule this year that your denominator in the ranking calculation is the # of games on your schedule as of April 1. So if you had a game scheduled that was not played for some reason, you get zero points and your ranking will suffer from the higher denominator.
I think this was put in place to keep teams from not rescheduling postponed games that would "hurt" their seeding. For example, say you have played 14 games, won 10 and have earned 12 bonus points. Your index # would be 32/14, or 2.286.
Now, let's say your 15th game was against a team with a losing record. If you play it and win, your index is now 34/15, or 2.267. You actually benefit from not rescheduling that game.
Now a .02 difference sounds small, but the rankings get so bunched in the middle that such a small difference could change your seed by 2-3 slots. With all the bad weather this Spring, I don't know if this rule will trip up some teams.
Second, your opponents have to have played at least 10 varsity level games for the game to count in your ranking. I noticed Woodbridge only played a few games and forfeited a # of others. All of their games would not count for the teams they played.
So, for example, Delmar is not 9-3 right now for tourney purposes - they are 7-3 because their Woodbridge games would be excluded.
Also, based on my reading, I don't think Conference Championship games (like the Henlopen game scheduled for Friday) will count in the calculations.
I don't believe that is correct. The Woodbridge games will count as forfeits. DIAA ruled that once Woodbridge dropped out, because they had already played a couple of games, teams remaining on their schedule had the option to either accept a forfeit or drop them and pick up another team that was on Woodbridge's schedule, but they could not just drop Woodbridge because that would be unfair to those teams that actually played Woodbridge at the beginning of the season.
Hopefully Delmar helped their seeding out today with a big win over Archmere. Delmar held a 9-4 lead with about 5 minutes to go in the game and then they allowed Archmere to mount a furious comeback.
Will the Henlopen Conference Championship count toward playoff seeds? Playing Cape would certainly help Delmar's strength of schedule.
Will the Henlopen Conference Championship count toward playoff seeds? Playing Cape would certainly help Delmar's strength of schedule.
Conference championship games have no effect on the playoffs whatsoever. Those games don't count for points. Just gets you a banner in the gym.
How the committee handles Woodbridge will have a sizeable impact on the seedings -
Several people above said the forfeited games will count, but that does not sound right to me.
Take Milford - they were 9-4 in played games, but if you add 2 Woodbridge forfeits, they are 11-4.
At 11-4, they give their opponents 2 bonus points - at 9-4, they give opponents 1 bonus point.
Delmar played Milford twice, so that could be 2 extra points, which could move Delmar up anywhere from 1 to 5 spots (and move others down). Milford also played Caravel and St Georges Tech - teams in the playoff picture that could see their seed improve with an extra bonus point.
Counting the games will have very little effect on Milford (their index will be right around 2.0, so adding two games at 2 pts each doesn't change that), but a big (positive) effect for Delmar.
Just seems odd.
Several people above said the forfeited games will count, but that does not sound right to me.
Take Milford - they were 9-4 in played games, but if you add 2 Woodbridge forfeits, they are 11-4.
At 11-4, they give their opponents 2 bonus points - at 9-4, they give opponents 1 bonus point.
Delmar played Milford twice, so that could be 2 extra points, which could move Delmar up anywhere from 1 to 5 spots (and move others down). Milford also played Caravel and St Georges Tech - teams in the playoff picture that could see their seed improve with an extra bonus point.
Counting the games will have very little effect on Milford (their index will be right around 2.0, so adding two games at 2 pts each doesn't change that), but a big (positive) effect for Delmar.
Just seems odd.
It is a group of coaches, athletic directors, and DIAA officials. The tournament rules and committee members are posted on the DIAA website. From my reading, their main job is to collect all the relevant data (team records, opponent records, etc.) and apply the pre-determined calculations for seeding the tournament.
They DO NOT make subjective decisions on who is in/out, or where the teams should be seeded. That part is all done by the formula. The committee also exists to address unusual situations not covered the seeding rules, schedule the game times and locations, etc.
They DO NOT make subjective decisions on who is in/out, or where the teams should be seeded. That part is all done by the formula. The committee also exists to address unusual situations not covered the seeding rules, schedule the game times and locations, etc.
As far as the Woodbridge issue is concerned even if the games counted as a forfeit Woodbridge only had 9 varsity games scheduled and only really played 2 varsity games so according to the rule that for a team to count in your rating they must play 10 games. Woodbridge doesn't meet that requirement. Would I be correct in this assumption?
Woodbridge originally had 13 games scheduled. After they dropped out, a couple of teams dropped them and picked up other teams on their schedule such as St. Thomas More, Sussex Central, and Indian River which was allowed by the DIAA ruling. However, if a team did not drop them and pick up another game, they must count the Woodbridge game(s), that's part of DIAA's ruling. Some teams like Sussex Tech have not yet counted that game in their standings and consequently Sussex Tech right now shows a higher point average than they actually have. However, Sussex Tech also had some out of State games in which the bonus points have not yet been added, so the final brackets could shift around a lot between now and Saturday. And you are correct in that those Woodbridge games will have an effect on final seeding's because there are a lot of teams that either played Woodbridge or played teams who gained points from Woodbridge. In Milford's case, they would benefit greatly from not counting the Woodbridge games because their point index is around 2.15, and if you dropped those two game it would raise their index considerably.
No surprises with that list. Woodbridge decision shouldn't impact this much - if so, only at the lower seeds.
It is too hard to do a 1-16 seeding without knowing exactly how Woodbridge will be treated.
The numbers below assume a Tower Hill wins over Friends today. If Friends wins, there are a # of changes from St Marks on down.
I also used Laxpower for everyone's records - I hope there are no mistakes in there.
The top 5 seeds look to be:
1.Sallies
2. Cape
3 Caesar Rodney
4 Appo
5. St Marks
After that, the numbers are quite complicated by how Woodbridge is treated. I don't even know everyone who was on their original schedule.
Delmar could be as high as #6 if all the Woodbridge scheduled games "count" or as low as #12 if they don't.
Archmere is a point behind St Marks - so they could be #6 or #7.
Tower Hill, Sussex Tech, Middletown, Milford and Caravel will end up somewhere between #7 and #12. They are all bunched together within a point of each other.
There is a break between #12 and the rest of the field.
Polytech looks to be #13. Indian River will be somewhere between #14-16. Brandywine looks to be #14 or #15.. If Milford becomes a 2 bonus point opponent, Wilm Christian, DMA and St Georges are in a 3 way tie for the last spot. If Milford is a 1 point team, St Georges drops out of the tie and DMA gets it over Wilm Christian on head to head.
Sorry it is not more exact.
This post was edited on 5/16 10:06 AM by DELax100
This post was edited on 5/16 10:07 AM by DELax100
The numbers below assume a Tower Hill wins over Friends today. If Friends wins, there are a # of changes from St Marks on down.
I also used Laxpower for everyone's records - I hope there are no mistakes in there.
The top 5 seeds look to be:
1.Sallies
2. Cape
3 Caesar Rodney
4 Appo
5. St Marks
After that, the numbers are quite complicated by how Woodbridge is treated. I don't even know everyone who was on their original schedule.
Delmar could be as high as #6 if all the Woodbridge scheduled games "count" or as low as #12 if they don't.
Archmere is a point behind St Marks - so they could be #6 or #7.
Tower Hill, Sussex Tech, Middletown, Milford and Caravel will end up somewhere between #7 and #12. They are all bunched together within a point of each other.
There is a break between #12 and the rest of the field.
Polytech looks to be #13. Indian River will be somewhere between #14-16. Brandywine looks to be #14 or #15.. If Milford becomes a 2 bonus point opponent, Wilm Christian, DMA and St Georges are in a 3 way tie for the last spot. If Milford is a 1 point team, St Georges drops out of the tie and DMA gets it over Wilm Christian on head to head.
Sorry it is not more exact.
This post was edited on 5/16 10:06 AM by DELax100
This post was edited on 5/16 10:07 AM by DELax100
Great catch FBLAX -
St Marks played an 8-10 Maryland team, but that team lost its last 3 games, and only the first 15 games count. So they were "8-7" for DE purposes, and that gives St Marks an extra point. Since the beat CR and Appo, that jumps them to #3.
The revised Top 5 is:
1. Sallies
2. Cape
3. St Marks
4. Caesar Rodney
5. Appo
If Tower Hill loses to Friends, Appo jumps to #3 and St Marks and CR drop one spot.
St Marks played an 8-10 Maryland team, but that team lost its last 3 games, and only the first 15 games count. So they were "8-7" for DE purposes, and that gives St Marks an extra point. Since the beat CR and Appo, that jumps them to #3.
The revised Top 5 is:
1. Sallies
2. Cape
3. St Marks
4. Caesar Rodney
5. Appo
If Tower Hill loses to Friends, Appo jumps to #3 and St Marks and CR drop one spot.
If Milford is a 1 point team then I believe IR drops out because their record is 8-6 and they would receive 11 bonus points which makes their total 27/14 which is 1.92. This is below Wilm Christian and DMA. Both of those teams point index is 29/15 which is 1.93
I'm certain Milford will be a 2 pt. bonus team with a record of 11-4 as the Woodbridge decision has already been made, those unplayed games count as forfeits unless they were dropped to pick up one of the available teams on Woodbridge's original schedule. So IR should be solidly in at #14 and 30 pts. They may also pick up an additional pt. or two depending on the records of the two out of state games they played.
FBLAX, if you are correct on the Woodbridge treatment, then 6-12 looks like this (assuming Tower and Sussex Tech win their last games):
6. Delmar
7. Archmere
8. Tower Hill
9-12 - Four way tie between Middletown, Milford, Sussex Tech and Caravel - all have an index of 34/15. Using strength of schedule tiebreaker (and Woodbridge at 0-13) the breakout would be:
9. Middletown
10. Caravel
11. Milford
12. SussexTech
6. Delmar
7. Archmere
8. Tower Hill
9-12 - Four way tie between Middletown, Milford, Sussex Tech and Caravel - all have an index of 34/15. Using strength of schedule tiebreaker (and Woodbridge at 0-13) the breakout would be:
9. Middletown
10. Caravel
11. Milford
12. SussexTech
I realize there are some more computations to be made (the Woodbridge issue and bonus points for out of state games), but how in the heck can Delmar be seeded over Sussex Tech at ALL, let alone Delmar possibly being a 6 seed and ST being a 12 seed?
ST beat Delmar. Delmar lost to Polytech while ST beat Polytech. ST is 11-3 (12-3 if you "count" Woodbridge) and has lost to Cape, CR and St. John's College HS (DC).
In any scenario, Delmar being seeded over ST is crazy.
ST beat Delmar. Delmar lost to Polytech while ST beat Polytech. ST is 11-3 (12-3 if you "count" Woodbridge) and has lost to Cape, CR and St. John's College HS (DC).
In any scenario, Delmar being seeded over ST is crazy.
That is what happens when use a "points system" to determine playoff teams. Its is all based on a points formula and sometimes logic flies out the window. I always believed in the old fashioned way of determining playoff teams by a seeding committee but even then personal biases and old grudges come into play so I guess there is no perfect system.
You're right Middletown man, but I believe the point system does make it the most fair for everyone. One change that needs to be made to it though is to make a win count for 3 points instead of 2. It would put a little more emphasis on winning, and right now the way the point system is set up, a team could schedule 15 good teams on their schedule with the potential of having .701 win % or better and not win a game the entire season and make the playoffs at 0-15 with a 2.0 point average.
Sussex Tech has only their schedule to blame. Their out of conference schedule was weak to say the least. Last year Sussex Tech benefited from their schedule to make the playoffs despite a losing (6-10) record. This year your out of conference schedule includes teams like St. Thomas Moore, Salisbury School, North Caroline, Woodbridge, etc. If you want to be known as an improving team, play a tougher schedule. I agree, the system may not be fair, but you have to go with what is in place and clearly playing a better schedule helps. Delmar received more bonus points for having a schedule with more teams that have a winning record. Sussex Tech did play a very good St. Johns team, unfortunately they had a losing record (7-13) giving Tech no bonus points. Tech was hampered a little this as well by some teams in their conference having down years such as Smyrna and Dover. The system makes no sense, but you have to play the current system to benefit your team.
Just released
#16 DMA at #1 Sallies
#9 Sussex Tech at #8 Tower Hill
#13 Ploytech at #4 CR
#12 Milford at #5 Appo
#15 Brandywine at #2 Cape
#10 Caravel at #7 Archmere
#11 Middletown at #6 Delmar
#14 Indian River at #3 St. Marks
This post was edited on 5/17 9:34 PM by DelmarMD
This post was edited on 5/17 9:36 PM by DelmarMD
This post was edited on 5/17 9:42 PM by DelmarMD
#16 DMA at #1 Sallies
#9 Sussex Tech at #8 Tower Hill
#13 Ploytech at #4 CR
#12 Milford at #5 Appo
#15 Brandywine at #2 Cape
#10 Caravel at #7 Archmere
#11 Middletown at #6 Delmar
#14 Indian River at #3 St. Marks
This post was edited on 5/17 9:34 PM by DelmarMD
This post was edited on 5/17 9:36 PM by DelmarMD
This post was edited on 5/17 9:42 PM by DelmarMD
#16 DMA at #1 Sallies 7pm Tuesday
#9 Sussex Tech at #8 Tower Hill 7pm Wednesday
#13 Ploytech at #4 CR 7pm Tuesday
#12 Milford at #5 Appo 7pm Wednesday
#15 Brandywine at #2 Cape 7pm Wednesday
#10 Caravel at #7 Archmere 4pm Wednesday
#11 Middletown at #6 Delmar 7pm Tuesday
#14 Indian River at #3 St. Marks 7pm Tuesday
#9 Sussex Tech at #8 Tower Hill 7pm Wednesday
#13 Ploytech at #4 CR 7pm Tuesday
#12 Milford at #5 Appo 7pm Wednesday
#15 Brandywine at #2 Cape 7pm Wednesday
#10 Caravel at #7 Archmere 4pm Wednesday
#11 Middletown at #6 Delmar 7pm Tuesday
#14 Indian River at #3 St. Marks 7pm Tuesday
FB LAX, you were right all along about how Woodbridge would be treated.
I still don't quite know how Seeds #9-12 shook out -
The only way I see Sussex at #9 is if their Woodbridge forfeit did not count.
And in 3 way tie between Middletown, Caravel and Milford, I do not know how Caravel came out above Middletown. Yes they beat them head to head, but that tiebreaker only comes into play if all three teams in a tie played each other, which they did not. Tiebreaker #2, record against common opponents, doesn't break the tie, so I thought it came down to #3 - strength of schedule. That would put Middletown at #10 and Caravel at #11.
I never get these tiebreakers correct.
I still don't quite know how Seeds #9-12 shook out -
The only way I see Sussex at #9 is if their Woodbridge forfeit did not count.
And in 3 way tie between Middletown, Caravel and Milford, I do not know how Caravel came out above Middletown. Yes they beat them head to head, but that tiebreaker only comes into play if all three teams in a tie played each other, which they did not. Tiebreaker #2, record against common opponents, doesn't break the tie, so I thought it came down to #3 - strength of schedule. That would put Middletown at #10 and Caravel at #11.
I never get these tiebreakers correct.
I am a bit confused with how the tie between the three teams was broken as well. Reading the email that accompanied the brackets offered even more confusion. This is directly from the cover letter on the email:
"Caravel, Milford and Middletown all this for the 10th seed. Caravel was 2-0 in head to head while Milford and Middletown were 1-1. Caravel was seeded 10th. Middletown defeated Milford in head to head and was seeded 11th while Milford was 12th."
Before anyone asks, yes that is the actual first sentence in the section regarding the three way tie..
I think there may have been some tired people on the selection board, this must have been a real long weekend for them. Milford defeated Caravel, so this doesn't make any sense. In addition, I thought head to head only came into play if all three teams played each other.
"Caravel, Milford and Middletown all this for the 10th seed. Caravel was 2-0 in head to head while Milford and Middletown were 1-1. Caravel was seeded 10th. Middletown defeated Milford in head to head and was seeded 11th while Milford was 12th."
Before anyone asks, yes that is the actual first sentence in the section regarding the three way tie..
I think there may have been some tired people on the selection board, this must have been a real long weekend for them. Milford defeated Caravel, so this doesn't make any sense. In addition, I thought head to head only came into play if all three teams played each other.
Kevin Charles cleared it up today:
In the email sent out on Saturday night publishing the boys' lacrosse bracket an error was made in reporting how the tie at 10th seed was broken. See the highlighted section below.
Actually, in order to use head to head in a 3 way tie, all three teams must have played each other. That did not happen. So the second tiebreaker is used, which is "win/loss percentage against common opponents during the regular season." There were two common opponents for all three teams, St. Georges and Newark. Caravel and Middletown were 2-0 while Milford was 1-1. That breaks the 3 way tie and gives Milford the 12th seed. To break the two way tie between Caravel and Middletown we go back to the first tiebreaker, head to head. Caravel defeated Middletown during the regular season and earned the 10th seed. Middletown then gets the 11th seed.
So, the seeding ended up being correct in the original email, but my original explanation was not correct. My apologies.
In the email sent out on Saturday night publishing the boys' lacrosse bracket an error was made in reporting how the tie at 10th seed was broken. See the highlighted section below.
Actually, in order to use head to head in a 3 way tie, all three teams must have played each other. That did not happen. So the second tiebreaker is used, which is "win/loss percentage against common opponents during the regular season." There were two common opponents for all three teams, St. Georges and Newark. Caravel and Middletown were 2-0 while Milford was 1-1. That breaks the 3 way tie and gives Milford the 12th seed. To break the two way tie between Caravel and Middletown we go back to the first tiebreaker, head to head. Caravel defeated Middletown during the regular season and earned the 10th seed. Middletown then gets the 11th seed.
So, the seeding ended up being correct in the original email, but my original explanation was not correct. My apologies.
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