I think we see year after year that your average upstate public schools just can’t compete with the privates and charters. Over the years the various schools like Caravel, St Marks, Red Lion, Sallies, DMA get all of these studs come in either as freshmen or transfer in year after year. Yes some public schools get one or two here and there, but it’s not even close. William Penn being the only school in their district and more importantly having a youth program differentiates them. Do we just accept that public teams upstate are what they are? Do we make all transfers who didn’t physically move sit a year? Do you eliminate 8th graders wrestling in HS since it’s a loophole that’s been taken advantage of no matter how they change it? Not knocking anyone but I didn’t even watch the D1 final this year or the Sallies/WP semi. While CR and SC tough teams, I knew nobody was coming close to Sallies. They had an amazing season, but those of us with no dogs in the D1 tournament had no interest as it was a lock from December that they would win.
Any way to level the playing field?
- Thread starter givemethree
- Start date
You can't level the playing field in athletics until you fix the public schools. The reasons folks do not send their kids to the feeder and go private/parochial/charter are many, but until voters get rid of people on boards who won't do anything to fix the lack of discipline and other things, nothing changes.
Just take them off your schedule for the season I mean you might see them at a tournament or two but if everyone takes them off their schedule what would be the interest in going to a school where you barely get any matches. I don’t know maybe I’m wrong but it’s definitely not a fair playing field.
The way this hurts them is that when it comes to state seeding they would have a lot of kids without common opponents. I can’t see teams like CR, WP, DMA and SC ever not wrestling them.
Is it running or is it not putting up with the recruiting and is it considered competition when a team is that stacked?
I wouldn’t be to sure of that I wouldn’t be surprised if acouple teams don’t drop them.
This was posted on Delaware online. It gives a different point of view about the issue
Lmao it shows a lot. When was the last time a true upstate public school won D1 or D2? Do you feel there aren’t enough talented kids up there? Or do you think the Sallies, St Marks, Caravels and DMA’s are getting those kids “because of such strong academics” and not athletically motivated?
Now don’t get me wrong. I’m not expecting Newark or Glasgow to win states, but you can’t tell me that schools like Brandywine or Middletown who both have a lot of kids in their feeder patterns aren’t at a huge disadvantage these days. How about AI? How many kids are they losing to private and charters? Should they suck it up and be expected to beat DMA or St Marke?
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It has nothing to do with sports but the bureaucracy of public school education. Red Clay has Dickinson, McKean, and AI, three high schools that all struggle. Christina, three high schools that all struggle, and we are not talking just in sports. If you go downstate all the schools, from elementary to high school, are all new or renovated, clean and beautiful. Athletic fields are amazing. If Red Clay and Christina, down sized and went from 3 to 2 or even 1. They pull together, the resources and make those schools great. There are also, so many people that work in these districts that never see a kid on a day to day basis. The district office is bloated. If they upgraded their facilities, kept students safe, and improved their academic performance, people might come back. As long as the schools are rundown, not safe, and academically challenged, no one with choices wants to send their child to them.
I get that and not entirely untrue but how do you explain Dover which is a newer modern school yet struggles to field a wrestling team? I believe that parents are drawn to the teams with winning histories and until DIAA starts enforcing transfer rules the rich will keep getting richer. Honestly in my opinion even if Christina, Brandywine and Red Clay each had all star teams comprised of kids from all of their district HS’s, they still couldn’t compete with privates and our schools down here that are neighborhood schools for the most part. That’s because their schools athletes are leaving for winning programs. Go watch kids states and see how many HS parents/volunteer coaches are approaching kids parents.
School districts, like empires, rot and fall from the inside, not the outside. Christina, Brandywine and Red Clay will continue to degrade as long as they continue to hire from within for the most part. The former principal at AI, who was there long enough to shoulder much of the blame for its decline, is now an admin at Concord. You think kids transferring is a problem, inept teachers and admin moving from one school/district to another is far worse. I know far more public school teachers with kids in privates than I do with kids in public schools. Canary in a coal mine, as they say.
AI was the first of many public schools to be hurt by options. Many wealthy families in that feeder pattern who could afford private schools and then Conrad, DMA and Charter School Wilmington took what was left if they could play a sport. They weren’t able to field football or baseball teams years before everyone else started struggling and probably before whoever that principal was unless he was there 10 years or more.
So you know for a fact the Salesianum wrestling team recruits? I would love if you could share any facts on recruitment for wrestling at Salesianum vs just making assumptions because they have a good team. Where were these recruitment conversations when downstate was dominant? It took Coach Cam 20+ years to figure out he could start recruiting? Make it make sense.
Again who doesn’t want to go to a school with the states best football stadium, wrestling room and baseball fields? Sometimes you just need a good assistant to let people know when applications are due and where the financial aid office is located. My point is that it’s virtually impossible for any public school in NCC to compete. I ask because I do not know, but when was the last time that a true public school with no admissions tests or lotteries was the best team in New Castle County? D1 or D2? Has it been in the past 10 years? If not then I’d have to argue that it’s not a level playing field. Davis is by all accounts a great coach and person which surely doesn’t hurt when it comes to choosing where to send your kids.
Experienced Tenured Coaching, Access to year round practice/leadership (school adjacent club team), Impressive Financial support.
I like to believe Middletown was on the ups with coaching and a club before their population was cut by the creation of Appo, St Georges, and a few others. AI had similar but Ive heard weird stories about all of their athletics crashing out of nowhere.
I like to believe Middletown was on the ups with coaching and a club before their population was cut by the creation of Appo, St Georges, and a few others. AI had similar but Ive heard weird stories about all of their athletics crashing out of nowhere.
Yes… the state of northern public schools is absurd. It’s laughable and shows you don’t really understand the state of New castle county. The best public schools in the north actually are competitive i.e William Penn, Delcastle, and St. George’s. All of these schools field competitive teams across all sports.
I know that downstate there are way less options for our kids. Choice could mean a 30-45 minute commute both ways. I was not aware that Delcastle was that successful in sports. They always had tough wrestlers but what other sports are they winning conference championships in?
Absolutely running a club out of your school is super beneficial! Do most public schools up north have dedicated wrestling rooms available year round? If so they are foolish not to try something.
I mean there is cost, insurance, proper oversight, and picking a night good for it. I dont know which schools have year round facilities either.
Delcastle has been on the rise as of recent and have fielded good soccer teams being flight A champs. Delcastle has always had great wrestlers here and there as well when discussing in a wrestling only stand point.
Delcastle has a soccer team and that’s it. Every other male sport is not competitive. NCC public’s are going to have a hard time getting back to glory in wrestling or many other sports unless they combine some schools. WP has the best chance since they are the “neighborhood” school but they still lose kids to votech and private.
we all are pointing out the same thing but the ones that really understand won’t put private schools at blame. It’s the lack of reliable public school experience we should be pointing our fingers at.
That’s my point. Delcastle I’d say is on the come up, William Penn and St. George’s are also the best examples of northern public schools. If northern public schools had academics comparable to that of charter and private schools it would be common sense to save money or skip the list.
To your point, I'm old enough to know that 30-40 years ago, folks with kids in Brandywine High and A.I's feeder didn't need Tower Hill/Friends/Archmere/Sallies. They spent the money because they could. Now folks in the same feeders have to spend the money on these schools for academic AND athletic success. It's a fact. And if WP is a shining example of academics, NCC is still in a lot of trouble.
WP draws from many areas that can’t afford to just put their kids in private schools and most importantly they are the only HS in their district. The best of one!
I think my man’s example of Delcastle being an athletic powerhouse is exaggerated for his argument. Nobody is questioning Sallies academics, I’m just saying you’re blind if you don’t think some families chose them, DMA or Caravel mainly for athletics.
Delaware Statewide Proficiency Overview (2024):
- Reading (SAT): 45% of high school students achieved proficiency or higher, marking a 1% increase from the previous year.
- Math (SAT): Only 18% of students reached proficiency, reflecting a 5% decrease from the prior year. In 2023, seventeen Delaware schools had single-digit proficiency rates in math, reading, or the SAT on state-administered tests. It's not about sports scholarships. Delaware public schools are failing our kids.
Full disclosure- Sals alum, brother alum, Father alum, uncles alum.
Football- 1 seed
Soccer- 1 seed, multiple champs
XC- 20+ state champs
Swimming- Alot of champs
basketaball- meh- but definitely in the conversation
Wrestling- state champs
Hockey- state champs
Baseball- kinda flukey but- state champs
Track- state champs
Lacrosse- fuhgettaboutit- nationally ranked
Off season work outs- YES
Facilities- Superior
Coaches- Better than most
Sum total= Good luck
Listen I get it. The Sals hate is real and explainable. I damn near did not send my son there because I knew making a team here is hard. Like, you gotta be good. Its like rooting against Tiger ( I'm old) or the Patriots, anybody but Sals. But to shout out words like recruiting or "scholarships" without ANY real proof is juvenile at best and likely litigious. Sallies is watched like a hawk, if they were doing anything underhandedly, we would know about it. Your wife's- best friends- hair dressers son's- best friends mom may have said they heard his teammate got a "full ride" to Sals but it isn't true. Parents choose Sallies because its an awesome opportunity. Do parents and coaches talk, ABSOLUTELY. But if you do the math here Sallies would be paying out hundreds of thousands in "scholarship" monies every year. As well heeled as Sallies is, this is impossible. I'm not here to say its fair. Sallies has the pick of the litter. Id understand any argument that would preclude them from state tournaments. But they are not breaking rules (or even bending them). Its simply the way things are. Are there changes that could be made- probably. Will they change? Who knows. How do you "level" the playing field? No clue. You can count all the transfers you want, nobody put a gun to their heads. Id guarantee, they aren't being compensated for their efforts ( I sleep just fine at nights). Is the playing field "level"- nope. Is it Sallies fault- nope. Just do me a favor, stop using words that equate to nefarious intent. Telling a private school to stop accepting students who happen to be beasts, is insanity. Again - not fair but not illegal.
Football- 1 seed
Soccer- 1 seed, multiple champs
XC- 20+ state champs
Swimming- Alot of champs
basketaball- meh- but definitely in the conversation
Wrestling- state champs
Hockey- state champs
Baseball- kinda flukey but- state champs
Track- state champs
Lacrosse- fuhgettaboutit- nationally ranked
Off season work outs- YES
Facilities- Superior
Coaches- Better than most
Sum total= Good luck
Listen I get it. The Sals hate is real and explainable. I damn near did not send my son there because I knew making a team here is hard. Like, you gotta be good. Its like rooting against Tiger ( I'm old) or the Patriots, anybody but Sals. But to shout out words like recruiting or "scholarships" without ANY real proof is juvenile at best and likely litigious. Sallies is watched like a hawk, if they were doing anything underhandedly, we would know about it. Your wife's- best friends- hair dressers son's- best friends mom may have said they heard his teammate got a "full ride" to Sals but it isn't true. Parents choose Sallies because its an awesome opportunity. Do parents and coaches talk, ABSOLUTELY. But if you do the math here Sallies would be paying out hundreds of thousands in "scholarship" monies every year. As well heeled as Sallies is, this is impossible. I'm not here to say its fair. Sallies has the pick of the litter. Id understand any argument that would preclude them from state tournaments. But they are not breaking rules (or even bending them). Its simply the way things are. Are there changes that could be made- probably. Will they change? Who knows. How do you "level" the playing field? No clue. You can count all the transfers you want, nobody put a gun to their heads. Id guarantee, they aren't being compensated for their efforts ( I sleep just fine at nights). Is the playing field "level"- nope. Is it Sallies fault- nope. Just do me a favor, stop using words that equate to nefarious intent. Telling a private school to stop accepting students who happen to be beasts, is insanity. Again - not fair but not illegal.
Proposal idea- (I know it won't ever happen) but if any school pulls from 30 miles or more in multiple directions and crosses more than 1 state line for two or more sports they should be considered a National Preps school.
Post grad's, transfers, etc. do not matter any more, go get em all and build the teams as they want. I know it won't be a popular move but if the reach is there for students to attend for any of the sports offered and players are coming from PA, NJ, MD and DE, why compete for a "State Title"? Go out and compete for a National Title. No one in state would have anything to complain about anymore.. More people would likely attend knowing they are fighting for National Titles as opposed to a Delaware State Title. Heck, kids who win DE title's as a team or individual may even transfer to try to win a Naty title and grow their scholarship chances. Win/ Win???
Post grad's, transfers, etc. do not matter any more, go get em all and build the teams as they want. I know it won't be a popular move but if the reach is there for students to attend for any of the sports offered and players are coming from PA, NJ, MD and DE, why compete for a "State Title"? Go out and compete for a National Title. No one in state would have anything to complain about anymore.. More people would likely attend knowing they are fighting for National Titles as opposed to a Delaware State Title. Heck, kids who win DE title's as a team or individual may even transfer to try to win a Naty title and grow their scholarship chances. Win/ Win???
I don’t think at Marks ever did this. Years ago WP went independent to get out of BHC just for wrestling. They were that good.
I believe I was told that if one sport goes Nat Preps, all sports have to go NP. I doubt they’d want to leave DIAA but I think Sallies should. I agree 100% that winning a state title in little ole Delaware isn’t some huge accomplishment for teams that draw for multiple states. Hell as someone who admittedly will always cheer for a public school over a private, I’d be cheering these young men from Sallies on as loud as anyone if they were competing in National Preps.
The dude doth protest too much, methinks. Love me some Billy Shakes. And the fact you think a comment or two could be litigated, well that helps a lot as well.
Sallies does not have the
Sallies does not have the guts, although I may be off one letter, to do anything other than what they do now: live in a big fish small pond world. Go NP and risk not getting more banners? Not happening.
I think Sallies can eventually go prep when they start fully dominating most if not all sports, but at the moment it would make no sense. I will say seeing how Sallies is progressing academically, sport, and infrastructure wise I’d say they are looking to move to NP anyways.
Im not saying youre wrong but I still havent seen a clear answer where its against the rules. Also id argue in these conversations "scholarships" could mean any type of aid, financial or not.
As far as recruiting goes - Anyone with a program does it in some way, its just never primarily for the sport and it shouldnt be. Private schools HAVE to do it because they have no feeder.
Anyway as for leveling the playing field. I feel like the work should be growing the weaker parts, not limiting or eliminating our stronger parts, and not just in wrestling but all together. If Parents are pulling kids from schools because they believe another school is THAT much better - we shouldnt be asking how do we limit the better school, but how do we improve the former schools.
