What happened to Polytechs wrestling program?
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People fail to realize that most teams go through cycles. Not every team has huge feeder programs. Graduate 4-5 kids and it can kill a team. I'll use us as an example. Every year we start with 25 and end with many 16-17 kids. Of those 16-17 usually 3-4 are first year kids. So graduating a bunch of seniors hurts.
Being a vo-tech school as well is tough because they just get random kids. Also, Smyrna is a powerhouse they beat Cape by 50 this year and Cape was in the state semis last year.
Caravels issue is numbers. They simply don't have enough kids coming out.Only 12 kids in the room this year and half of them are freshmen and 8th grader The coaches do a great job with the ones they have though. CA needs a feeder and more of the football players to come out and give it a try
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Don't think that is a very fair statement. The way Dicky "left" would set back any program. A highly regarded coach was arrested and sent to prison for numerous felonies. Usually a program will not pick up where another coach left off after a situation like that. CR has been competitive, maybe not like years past but they are building. JMO
CR has a pretty good team this year. They beat Central and have a lot of guys ranked by 302.
Say what you want but I've been told over the years by more than one person that St Marks and Caravel stopped giving "financial aid" to kids just based on coaches request. That's why the numbers are down. And CR is down? I'd hate to see them up if this is them being down.
I agree @myrealname if CR is down I'd hate to see them up. St. Marks was at one point ranked Top 15 in the country, now I don't know if they can field a full lineup. When they had Telford, they were a powerhouse.
i went to a dual meet st marks and smyrna when telford was at st m. what an atmosphere! they were booing telford during warmups and he was playing into it, antagonizing people in the crowd, lol. st marks won that night i think, and one yokel got tossed for getting out of hand.
Guys, it is a variety of factors.
Number 1 is that participation in sports is down, ESPECIALLY wrestling. Number 2 is the feeder programs are very limited and scarce compared to what they were in the past....And let's not forget the immense amount of schools, especially in New Castle County.
As for St. Marks, their enrollment has gone from about 2000 students (around 2007 2008), down to only 450. And there are many reasons for that; ie Charter Schools popping up everywhere, rising tuition, Conrad and DMA becoming high schools. NCC has become watered down of you will. I mean fornGods sake duel meets, regardless of the program, used to last 4 hours because teams, including smaller schools and programs, would have full JV and full varsity lineups. Now, we are seeing probably half the teams.in the state who can't field a full varsity lineup.
Every school and every county has their reasons and it is far from it "just being the coach". Not many people understand the obstacles of running a program and understand what has been going on in high schools and wrestling lrograms themselves unless you coach or teach and witness it firsthand.
As a coach of a small program, it is frustrating having people from the outside talk about such things like they witness first hand the high schools and the what the programs and student athletes go through themselves. As a former wrestler and coach and member of the wrestling community for over 25 years, I can tell you first hand how much things have changed just within the past 7 or 8 years and could write all day on the reasons.
Number 1 is that participation in sports is down, ESPECIALLY wrestling. Number 2 is the feeder programs are very limited and scarce compared to what they were in the past....And let's not forget the immense amount of schools, especially in New Castle County.
As for St. Marks, their enrollment has gone from about 2000 students (around 2007 2008), down to only 450. And there are many reasons for that; ie Charter Schools popping up everywhere, rising tuition, Conrad and DMA becoming high schools. NCC has become watered down of you will. I mean fornGods sake duel meets, regardless of the program, used to last 4 hours because teams, including smaller schools and programs, would have full JV and full varsity lineups. Now, we are seeing probably half the teams.in the state who can't field a full varsity lineup.
Every school and every county has their reasons and it is far from it "just being the coach". Not many people understand the obstacles of running a program and understand what has been going on in high schools and wrestling lrograms themselves unless you coach or teach and witness it firsthand.
As a coach of a small program, it is frustrating having people from the outside talk about such things like they witness first hand the high schools and the what the programs and student athletes go through themselves. As a former wrestler and coach and member of the wrestling community for over 25 years, I can tell you first hand how much things have changed just within the past 7 or 8 years and could write all day on the reasons.
Schools have to have coaches that kids want to wrestle for. Coaches that will inspire kids and make them want to wrestle. You’re not the only one who has been a coach, a wrestler and Involved in the wrestling community for 25 plus years; many of us have. Great coaches field great programs. What real competition does wrestling have other than basketball? The answer is just not playing a sport. The original comment was about polys program, not St Marks. Poly has more than enough kids in the school from areas with feeders. When Buckson coached it was inspirational, now they should probably rethink the program.
DE individual state tournament for Telfords senior year was at SC. I think he pinned his way to the finals and beat everyone within a minute. The IR kid he wrestled in the finals was (to be nice about it) "nervous" to say the least. Telford pinned the kid in like 68 seconds. The STM crowd went crazy and he ran off the mat and went to the side gym and jumped and grabbed the rim of the basketball goal and did a few pull ups. He was a monster..........Sadly a few short years later STM cancelled a weather delayed match against SC because they didn't have a enough wrestlers and the near 2 hour ride wasn't worth it.
Having a popular coach is a bonus but it doesn't magically give you 30 kids. Our school has a good number of students, but I can assure you that kids aren't staying away because if coaching. Sure one of two kids may not like a coach, that's everywhere. Whether it's they can't handle the discipline or think they are above team rules, there are always a few. I can tell you that concord, mount and brandywine have many kids that are in their feeder that wrestle for Hodgson, DMA, St Georges, Sallies, Howard, Archmere, Friends, etc. There aren't enough wrestlers to fill every roster spot. It is what it is. We are lucky at Concord. We get ok numbers and if not for one kid that quit and another with medical issues we would have had a full lineup. Please don't put it all on the coach because that's just not always fair. For example Nick (allheart) works just as hard for his team as any coach in the state. His school just doesn't have the kids to fill a team. Wrestling is a tough sport and many kids these days don't want to put the work in that's needed to be a successful wrestler.
Yes having a popular.cpach or coach the kids get along with is a bonus, but trust me when I tell you it doesn't fix it. The generational gap from those born before 1994 and after is immense. A prime example is the uniform change. We are litrally beginning to try and cater to this generation because as Mike stated, there just arent as many kids who want to pht in the work and dedication it takes to become a wrestler.....that and the lack of youth programs. I know you were speaking about Poly, but even St. Marks;
Brian Willis is their head coach who is not only a very likeable guy, but wrestled since he was 5 years old. He was also a 2 time state champ and Fargo Greco National Champ ranked number 4 in the Country. Yet, he currently is only fielding a program with 7 wrestlers and maybe 2 state qualifiers. He also had an asstncoach for 2 years in Eddie Quinn who was a state champ!
We have a group of very good people in general and very successful former wrestlers who are trying to give back to the sport...Vinnie Ranauto has a youth program and was a three time champ, Brian Willis at St. Marks, Mike Welch (2 time state champ and 2nd at nationals) and Jordan Sianni (3 times and ranked 9 at Pittsburgh) trying to get Caravels program running, Spence (state champ) and Jaque Scott (2 time runner up) tryinf to imprpve Mount Pleasant. The list goes on and on. There are a plethora of more then qualified coaches in the state doing their best with what they are given.
Yes, the coach helps, but trust me when I tell you there are 100 other factors of why programs participation and strength are declining.
Brian Willis is their head coach who is not only a very likeable guy, but wrestled since he was 5 years old. He was also a 2 time state champ and Fargo Greco National Champ ranked number 4 in the Country. Yet, he currently is only fielding a program with 7 wrestlers and maybe 2 state qualifiers. He also had an asstncoach for 2 years in Eddie Quinn who was a state champ!
We have a group of very good people in general and very successful former wrestlers who are trying to give back to the sport...Vinnie Ranauto has a youth program and was a three time champ, Brian Willis at St. Marks, Mike Welch (2 time state champ and 2nd at nationals) and Jordan Sianni (3 times and ranked 9 at Pittsburgh) trying to get Caravels program running, Spence (state champ) and Jaque Scott (2 time runner up) tryinf to imprpve Mount Pleasant. The list goes on and on. There are a plethora of more then qualified coaches in the state doing their best with what they are given.
Yes, the coach helps, but trust me when I tell you there are 100 other factors of why programs participation and strength are declining.
@AllHeart28, we appreciate all you do in supporting our youth. Your posts are always in-depth and uplifting. To all the coaches, many thanks
All those are valid reasons. I just want to add my situation with my son. He started wrestling at the age of 8. His first year he won just about every one of his matches. During his second year, I was advised from his wrestling community, he should have around a .500 record. So I moved him into some tougher competition and he learned how to deal with adversity, pretty quickly. He had more losses in a day than he had his whole first year. It was not easy but he prevailed. At the end of the year, he was excited to wrestle and could not wait until next wrestling season. Here was the problem for us. I make my kids play a different sport each season. By the next wrestling season, the kids that used to be on the same level as him, continued to focus on wrestling throughout the year. The next wrestling season those kids were head and shoulders above my son. I can't imagine how good these kids will be by high school.
I know when I was in high school there were kids who went out in 9th grade for the first time and ended up being pretty successful wrestlers. I am just thinking it would be tough for a freshman to try wrestling for the first time. With the numbers, it looks like a kid would make a team. But with the depth of talent, it would definitely be an uphill battle.
I know when I was in high school there were kids who went out in 9th grade for the first time and ended up being pretty successful wrestlers. I am just thinking it would be tough for a freshman to try wrestling for the first time. With the numbers, it looks like a kid would make a team. But with the depth of talent, it would definitely be an uphill battle.
Kids growing up need to do more than wrestling because all the kids who wrestle year round grow up and turn out to be 18 year olds who don’t even know how to throw a ball correctly and it’s embarrassing
Knowing how to fight seems more important than how to throw a ball.....
Agreed! The knowledge on how to throw a ball never saved anyone from an attack.
All my boys did/do three sports. In small town USA, the town depends on the best athletes to be on the athletic teams. The kids do it from Pop Warner, Little Wrestlers, and Little League right on thru high school. I wouldn't worry about the kids that improve faster than your son by focusing just on wrestling. Just keep your kid involved in wrestling when the time comes around. He'll be a better overall athlete and will begin to win those matches again. It worked out well for my boys.
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So, the fact that Poly has 1200 kids with almost no wrestling team since Buckson and laurel has 530 kids with a great new coach and what seems to be possibly the div 2 state title this year defeats the school population theory.
@Escalated , you are giving one example and basing a theory upon it. Of course there are exceptions. That's like saying, well Mugsy Bouges who played in the NBA was only 5ft 3inhes and made it to the NBA and played well, so the theory that you need to be tall to play and be successful in basketball is wrong.
We are just going to disagree on this issue. Buckson was a great coach and so is the new Laurel Coach. And there are a number of great experienced coaches in the state. Are you saying Clif at Middletown must not be a good coach because now Middletown does not have may wrestlers or any wrestlers ranked in the state (even though Clif got Coach of the Year and had Middletown ranked top 5 at one point)? Or Dave Williams at Newark Charter because they only have about 8 wrestlers with maybe 1 or 2 qualifiers sprinkled in (Even though Dave was at St. Marks at a time that produced some state champs and were successful). Or Mike Welch at Caravel whom has produced multiple state champs and quality wrestlers, but they only have 8 of 14 weight classes covered this year. And there are plenty more who have had a magnitude of success as wrestlers and coaches. Yet, now, they are dealing with a magnitude of other factors in which their teams are declining or not producing wrestlers of high quality.
All of the coaches above, and plenty more, are phenomenal coaches who dedicate their times in season and off season to grow the sport in Delaware. Yes, DE wrestling is not what it used to be in terms of participation throughout the state and number of national caliber wrestlers like it used to. But to say it is coaches whom are the reason behind it is not only wrong but unfair to say.
Yes, you will find one or two examples of great coaches who found a way to increase a programs participation and find a way to get quality wrestlers. But for every example you show me, I will show you 5 examples from the other side of the coin.
We are just going to disagree on this issue. Buckson was a great coach and so is the new Laurel Coach. And there are a number of great experienced coaches in the state. Are you saying Clif at Middletown must not be a good coach because now Middletown does not have may wrestlers or any wrestlers ranked in the state (even though Clif got Coach of the Year and had Middletown ranked top 5 at one point)? Or Dave Williams at Newark Charter because they only have about 8 wrestlers with maybe 1 or 2 qualifiers sprinkled in (Even though Dave was at St. Marks at a time that produced some state champs and were successful). Or Mike Welch at Caravel whom has produced multiple state champs and quality wrestlers, but they only have 8 of 14 weight classes covered this year. And there are plenty more who have had a magnitude of success as wrestlers and coaches. Yet, now, they are dealing with a magnitude of other factors in which their teams are declining or not producing wrestlers of high quality.
All of the coaches above, and plenty more, are phenomenal coaches who dedicate their times in season and off season to grow the sport in Delaware. Yes, DE wrestling is not what it used to be in terms of participation throughout the state and number of national caliber wrestlers like it used to. But to say it is coaches whom are the reason behind it is not only wrong but unfair to say.
Yes, you will find one or two examples of great coaches who found a way to increase a programs participation and find a way to get quality wrestlers. But for every example you show me, I will show you 5 examples from the other side of the coin.
Nick @AllHeart28 youll never get through to some people. Being involved in delaware wrestling for 34 years now I've seen plenty of very good coaches who haven't had state or even conference champs. Who rarely if ever field a full team. I agree with you, if it's just a popularity contest like some seem to think, they should go apply at Dickinson and build that program back up!
I’m not doubting what you’re saying, it is true. However, wrestling as any sport, is a culture. If the coaches can’t attract enough kids their not creating the culture which makes kids want to be a part of it. I know that in Poly wrestling is not a popular sport right now. Not many kids are interested in being on that team. Is it a popularity contest? Sure. If the coaching staff is positive, winning and fun it’s popular, if not it’s unpopular.
Correct, but you have to remember that schools have their up and down years as it goes in waves. I believe that this is his 1st or 2nd year? Give the man a chance and let him build his own culture. I do not know the intricacies, but maybe Polytech was senior heavy last year and graduated a number of wrestlers and it just so happens that the new coach took over during a rebuilding year. Dan Boone, at Hogdson, whom is our President, went through something similar. Hogdson was ranked 5th in Division 2 and had about 2 or 3 state placers but had about 9 starters whom were seniors. So, when Dan took over the program the following year (ironically enough he came from Poly I believe), he had to build his own culture and find a number of wrestlers as it was a down year for them graduating so many. Da, who is an excellent coach is now in the process of building the program back up as well as being involved to the point where he is our President. Just because when Dan took over and his first year Hogdson went from ranked 5 in divison 2 to only having about 10 wrestlers with 2 state qualifiers does not make Dan a bad coach. It was the situation he was given and now is working hard to get Hodgson back to what it once was.
@Wrestler132145 I have played and participated in every sport there is. Wrestling most definitely was not only the toughest, but made me more of an athlete as it improved my speed, agility, body control, and flexibility. Wrestling also made me better and gave me the tools to be successful in all the other sports I participated in as well.
There is a reason I decided to coach wrestling and not the other sports. Wrestling, by far IMO, requires the body control and conditioning in comparison to all the other sports. Ask and NFL player who wrestled in high school and they will tell you how much it helped them in football (and there are plenty...Roddy White was a 2 timer in SC and Ray Lewis was a State Champ in FL just to name two). I know wouldn't have achieved what I did in football without the sport of wrestling. It IS the best sport in the world.
There is a reason I decided to coach wrestling and not the other sports. Wrestling, by far IMO, requires the body control and conditioning in comparison to all the other sports. Ask and NFL player who wrestled in high school and they will tell you how much it helped them in football (and there are plenty...Roddy White was a 2 timer in SC and Ray Lewis was a State Champ in FL just to name two). I know wouldn't have achieved what I did in football without the sport of wrestling. It IS the best sport in the world.
I've been following Delaware high school wrestling since 2001, and I can't say Polytech has ever been what I think of as a "powerhouse".
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